Dæmons (His Dark Materials)

[Random Person]

hi i'm new how do you work this website?

[Frankie]

For starters, welcome. However, I'll have to ask you to not post something off-topic. If you have/had a question, you could post it in the Help board or by Private Messaging either myself or Sea of Darkness.

To get an idea of what to do around here, you should read:
The Rules.
Topics and Posting.
This!
Or basically anything that has been stickied (has a little folder with a screw driver -type icon next to it).

If I may make a suggestion, why not create a topic in the New Members board and tell us about yourself?

[feindslayer]

I got this via e-mail:

AVOID "THE GOLDEN COMPASS" MOVIE
-
There's a movie coming out December 7th that people need to avoid. It's called "The Golden Compass" and it's based off the first book of the trilogy called "His Dark Materials" which has sold 15 million copies worldwide. The author is an avid athiest and says one of his goals is to undermine Christianity and introduce children to atheism and the occult.

The movie looks really interesting and enticing so a lot of Christians may want to go see it -- DON'T. It's filled with anti-biblical concepts and spiritual darkness, things the Bible forbids. You can see a lot of its demonic themes on the movie's official website. The 3 minute trailer for the movie is viewable there and you can view some of the movie's content on the compass (alethiometer) and demons (daemons).

Here's a few resources to help educate us:


Focus on the Family: www.citizenlink.org/content/A000005672.cfm

The Catholic League: www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1342

Watch a video of the Catholic League's Bill Donohue discussing this issue: catholicleague.org/videos/

Snopes (urban legend reference site): snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

Official Movie Website: www.goldencompassmovie.com

[Frankie]

LONG POST AHEAD

Actually, if these people who are so adamant about protesting the movie actually took time to read the books, they'd understand that the book was about corrupt organized religion of any kind. The Magisterium in the book are a church, yes, but they are an example of what happens when power is corrupted.

And yes, (SPOILERS) in the third book, the leading angel does die, but again, if the protesters actually READ the book they'd understand that this angel is NOT, I repeat, not, God. In fact, it's the first angel created, but who did not create the universe. Since he was formed by Dust first, he took credit for creation. He is more akin to Satan than any other god, as he fell from grace.

Dæmons are NOT demons. They are a human's soul in the form of a corporeal animal. They are a person's one true friend and companion, akin to the conscience, the soul, the thing that separates humans from animals. They are in no way related to demons, minus the fact that they are (SHOCK!GASP!HORROR!) pronounced the same way.

"I was sent a link to your article by a friend and, to say the least, I’m a little taken aback. Your hostile view of Pullman’s dæmons strikes me as more than a little skewed.

First off, yes, ‘daemon’ can be a variant of the word ‘demon’, but it’s also a variant of the word ‘daimon’, which is ‘an attendant spirit’. Considering the role dæmons play in Pullman’s trilogy, I like to think the daimon variant is the closer definition. ‘Daimon’, I believe, actually originates from the Greek philosopher Socrates, who believed he had an attendant spirit and called it his daimon. Apparently, this daimon would admonish him if he were about to do something wrong, but remain silent when he did good. Scholars suggest that this internal companion was in fact Socrates’ conscience – the voice from within that we all possess. Have you read His Dark Materials? Dæmons serve much the same purpose as Socrates’ daimon. The main character’s dæmon chides his human when he thinks she will get into trouble, etc. He is much more of a tangible conscience than a negative force willing her to do wrong.

I’ll admit that I discovered my own dæmon when I was thirteen. I’m seventeen now, applying for university, and I still converse with my dæmon daily. I’m not a lonely kid trying to find friends in my own imagination; nor am I a Satanist. In fact, I’m a Christian – with Christian values, and a strong sense of morals. And – this might surprise you – when I stray from those morals (like most teenagers will at times, I’m sure), it is my dæmon who urges me to do the right, the Christian, thing. If Christ gave us an invisible companion and conscience, is it so difficult to believe that that companion may just be the voice I label my dæmon? If a child came to strike up the same relationship with their own dæmon that I have with mine, without calling it by that term, would you still condemn them? It seems to be the word itself that bothers you so much, but when it comes down to it a dæmon is simply a conscience who (in many cases, I feel) will teach ethics and morals rather than strip a person of them. Stating that a dictionary definition will refute that claim won’t sway my opinion in the least.

I urge you to be more open-minded about this. I can’t say I expect you to embrace the concept, but it disappoints me that you would so vehemently discourage others from doing the same when I find it has been so healthy and beneficial for me. I have even said before that I believe my own dæmon has brought me closer to God – and it stings that you would suggest otherwise. At the very least, you could educate yourself more about the concept. Remember not to knock it ‘til you’ve tried it."

"Dear *****,

Hello. My name is **** *****, and I happened upon your essay on daemons through a forum I run. I know a friend of mine named Cat emailed you in response to it. I was able to read the correspondence between you two and wanted to add a few thoughts and findings of my own. Cat did a fantastic job of pointing out how we are supposed to listen our own conscience, not ignore it, but I wanted to touch on Biblical verses on Satan and demons, and how this doesn't correspond with what we see in our daemons. (My own is called Rannock, and I have known him for eight years.)

First off, it troubles me that you seem so against people following "their will," even if this will is in accord with what God Himself would wish. If my daemon (who often acts as my conscience) tells me to not hurt someone's feelings, is it wrong to follow his advice because I didn't first bring the problem to God? Should I not follow my parents' advice because they could be leading me down a wicked path, even though their opinions seem perfectly sound and have always been so in the past? God gave us intellect - He gave us reason. It is a marvelous gift that none but ourselves can boast. I believe it an insult to God to throw this by the waste-side and instead turn to Him for every trivial decision in my life. If my daemon had ever told me to do awful things, I would be worried. But he has always done his best to lead me down the righteous path, and becomes upset if ever I feel like condemning the Bible or my religion (and I have). As Cat said, this would be the perfect opportunity for Satan to turn a soul away from Christ. Instead my Rannock is always steadfast in his faith and in doing so helps me see the light and turn back to God. While it's true that Satan is called the Master of Lies, and that deception is a complex thing... Rannock has never done anything to suggest he's anything but the Christian he claims to be, so what reason do I have to suspect otherwise? In the past eight years he has never tempted me to do evil. Maybe he's just preparing for a large pitfall decades down the road, but if I said that about your dearest friend, you'd probably find the idea illogical, too. In truth we cannot be sure ANYONE isn't just a minion of Satan, but isn't that where faith and reason come into play? And besides, if we can't use our own reason to determine God's will, we're quite lost, aren't we?

If you take the orthodox view of demonic demons, you probably believe that demons flee in the name of Jesus. Yet my daemon prays with me (and in doing so speaks Jesus' name), sings hymns loudly in my heart, praises God's name whilst singing to Christian songs on the radio, and has often reminded me that God loves me. I believe a demon, even Satan himself, would rather die than do such things. It is not within their nature. James 2:19 states, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." My daemon does not shudder in terror at God's name, be it God or Jesus or Yaweh. He loves God with all his (our) heart. At the very utterance of the name "Jesus" all the power of the Devil is supposed to be destroyed. Yet both of us speak Jesus' name, and Rannock is still here by my side! Indeed, it appears demons can only inflict problems on believers if God allows it (Job 2:7-9). So as a believer I may not be safe from my own personal temptations, but I do not believe a demon could constantly be afflicting me and plotting my ruin.

Then there's also the fact that I see Rannock as an aspect of my psyche or my subconscious, not some external force. So naturally he knows all my thoughts, all my unspoken fears and doubts, all my prayers, all my memories... We are basically one and the same. I can keep no secrets from him unless I'm somehow keeping them from myself. All the fellow Christians I've come across feel that Satan cannot hear our thoughts. Satan can observe our actions and hear what we say aloud, and he's also deft at predicting human behavior because he's witnessed it for eons. The Bible seems to support this, as it explains that Satan is a limited creature (Job 1:12). He is not God’s equal (1 John 4:4). He is not omniscient, omnipotent or infinite in any way. Satan is said to have great power in the world (John 12:31, 1 John 5:19) and in the flesh (Gal.5:19-21). Yet my daemon is not even corporeal; he is something internal. Nor does he tempt me when it comes to the flesh. Note that I lived with my fiance for over a year before we married, and our marriage was not consummated until the night of. Rannock didn't tempt me otherwise when he could have. (Also note that Jeremiah 17:10 says: "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve." Nowhere does it imply that the Devil also has this ability.) Satan tempts people to be unforgiving (2 Cor. 2:10), yet why has my daemon always been insistent that I forgive even when I'm in the throes of anger? Satan would tempt us to discouragement (1 Pet. 5:6-10), when knowing Rannock has noticeably boosted my self-esteem. With him, I know I am always loved. Satan promotes anger, bitterness and division (Eph.4:26,27; 2 Cor.2:5-11), while Rannock always tries to calm me down, to help me forgive others and make peace. Demons are active in hindering the spiritual progress of believers every way they can, and they are deliberate and organized in these attempts (Eph.6:10-12). But Rannock didn't "appear" to me after I accepted Jesus in some attempt to steal my heart. He's a part of me, and I knew him even before and during my conversion to Christianity. He was always there, supportive. Because of all this I feel justified in saying Rannock is not a demon, but more an attendant spirit like the daimon of Socrates.

You make an interesting point, however, in asking 'if our daemon is indeed our conscience, maybe we should give credit where it's due.' I see daemons as proof of us being God's creation instead of just another animal, but not everyone feels that way. As Cat explained, we believe everyone has what we consider a daemon, be they atheists, Wiccans, Muslims, Christians, or whatever. For some daemons are viewed as nothing but a helpful mental construct - a personification of that other end of your internal dialogue. By their nature, then, a daemon is only as righteous or wicked as their human, because they are their human. My daemon believes in God because I'm Christian, while an atheist often has an atheist daemon. It makes sense. I don't believe their daemon's voice is directly influenced by God, and I don't feel mine is either. He's clearly not Satan, but he's not some personal Jesus either. As loving as my daemon is, he is not perfect. He may curse on occasion, or get angry, or say hurtful things. He believes in absolute morals by divine command, but like me he has flaws, and I love him despite these imperfections. But to call such a being God would (in my opinion) be sacrilegious. I'd basically be calling myself God. We are both influenced by the Holy Spirit because we are believers, but that means a part of God is always within us, not that we are His equals. And doesn't The New Testament say that ONLY believers have the Holy Spirit within them? Ergo, daemons cannot be God, since atheists also know theirs.

We are well aware that daemons are individualized, mortal, relative, fallible, and finite. It's not their job to be perfect; in fact, it's impossible unless someone out there were perfect. We don't attribute their characteristics to God because we can clearly see the difference. Rannock would praise GOD for his being able to help me and comfort me, so you needn't worry that credit isn't being given where it's due.

Lastly, I want to discuss Scripture's take on consciences. Can our conscience lead us astray? Yes - sometimes - but the Bible is also clear on good consciences, or the type that are “void of offense toward God” (Acts 24:16). Seeing as my daemon always encourages me towards actions that are in accord with God's will, I feel confident in saying my conscience is such a one. Paul says that every man has a conscience, and rightly so, because how could we determine right from wrong without that which we call a conscience? Our conscience can be desensitized if we fail to listen to it, even to the extent that we become morally blind, stumbling around in moral darkness as John puts it (1 John 2:11).

In 1 Corinthians 4:4, Paul said, “For I know nothing by myself.” This phrase means “my conscience does not accuse me.” Paul completed the sentence by saying: “yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.” Paul, in short, taught that a pure conscience is valuable, but that Christ is the final standard by which a person is judged. And this is what all Christians who know their daemon believe. Our daemons give valuable insight, but they are in no way equal to the Lord, and we do not put our daemons above Him. Paul would have said that a person's conscience must be obeyed. Paul, however, would not have said that a person has no other guide. Him and I agree on this. Given that, why should I neglect my personal conscience if I'm not putting it before God?

I apologize for the massive length of this letter, but I didn't want to leave anything out. I hope you will consider what I wrote and reply when able. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
**** *****"

The idea of dæmons being evil or in any way Satanic is just plain silly.

If any child, or adult, or just plain human being suddenly stops believing in their faith after reading a book, then there was something wrong beforehand. Indeed, Phillip Pullman is an atheist/agnostic, but by that logic, no Wiccan, Jew, atheist, et cetera, should read the Chronicles of Narnia (look at the immense Christian undertones). Some do choose not to, but that's their choice. I have never met anybody who was so weak-willed and doubtful of their faith to convert right after reading a book. Instead of blaming a book for, oh noes, being against organized religion, killing a lying angel, having the freedom to grow up, and claiming that this is going to convert their children, people should instead look more closely at what His Dark Materials is about.

It's just as pointless as all of the fuss over Harry Potter encouraging witchcraft. I read the books, as have most people I've met. Now, I may be wrong, but...I don't see any of us running around hexing everybody we meet. It's the same with His Dark Materials. After reading the series, I did not reject my belief in a higher power. Neither do the books say "God doesn't exist." It's never implied, either. In fact, Dust is actually more akin to God than the Authority was.

I still pray every night, even though I don't go to church, or call myself "Christian" or "Jewish," et cetera. I'm agnostic. I made that choice by myself many years ago, without a book to help me decide. If somebody changes religion after reading a book, then like I said, there was something going on beforehand. No book can ever truly sway somebody's beliefs if those beliefs are steadfast and true. Nicole Kidman, who is a devout Catholic, even stated that if she felt the movie went against her beliefs or belittled them in some way, she would have refused to play Marisa Coulter.

Of course, if you don't want to see the movie, don't. I can't stop you. However, I do feel it is part of my duty as an administrator to correct something so untrue as what these protesters are claiming. Don't see the movie, or read the books if you don't want. But I will not stop seeing and enjoying this movie, and reading and enjoying these books, just as I will not stop having a dæmon, or being agnostic. Simple as that. =)

**** wrote:
I'm writing an opinion/editorial piece that'll hopefully cover all of the controversial points they all bring up as bad. I'll post it here when I'm done, but I have to ask if I'm missing a point or two, I think I am.

I have/am going to have:
1. Pullman is agnostic, not atheist, (and either way, why does it matter?)
2. Lyra & Will don't kill God, they kill the Authority (and all differences therein)
3. Daemons are not demons.

Am I missing anything?

There are far more good morals taught, like the beauty of falling in love, and the maturity that comes with growing up and gaining experience, than the "bad"--ie, "killing God" (which isn't even the real God).

blog.beliefnet.com/idolchatter/2007/10/responding-to-my-fellow-christ.html

I agree with you more or less entirely.

I can see where the concern comes from. I cannot speak for Pullman himself, naturally, but I don't believe he has any real love for religion. The views he displays can be taken to be quite confrontational.

However, I was raised a Christian. Hell, I'm a missionary's kid. I've gone through plenty of doubt in my time, but continue to return to God. And I loved this series from the moment I picked it up as a curious little child in primary school. It can easily be argued that the series, especially the last two books, are not really aimed towards children, but that's another debate altogether. The first novel, the one being made into a movie, is largely harmless.

One of the biggest shockers within the trilogy is, of course, the 'killing of God'. When examining the books you will find that there is a being called the Authority that claims to be God, yes. And he dies, yes. But is he God? Is he killed? The God we Christians worship cannot die, because He was not born. He is not simply an arrogant angel, and He does not promote tyranny or cruelty. That being in those books /is not our God/. It is a representation of the false idol people turn to when they commit wayward acts. How many times throughout history have people used the excuse that "It is God's will" to then pervert His Word? His Dark Materials is not a slander towards true Christianity, but rather a story of corruption and what happens when even the purest faith becomes overwhelmed by lust for power. When Jesus himself came to earth, he questioned many things. HDM challenges many of the same things our Saviour did; the pettiness of tax laws when they usurp honest kindness, and so on.

I believe it is important to question. If we don't question, if we simply blindly follow everything we are told - even if it comes in the form of the Bible - then it is a hollow faith. I was never as strong in my Christian beliefs until after I went through a period where I doubted strongly, and questioned a lot. When I came out the other side I was so much stronger for it because then they were /my/ beliefs. They weren't what I'd been sthingy-fed by my parents and church and were too afraid to question. They were what I'd looked at seriously and decided for myself that it was worth it.

And then there is the fact it is a fantasy novel. I think society needs to give children more credit; believe it or not, they can be exposed to things and not immediately take them on like an imprinted duckling. I read those books multiple times as a ten-year old; and hey, here I am, a solid (if liberal) Christian.

Snopes Article: Lovely. How many ways can they take quotes out of context? Let us count the ways:
1. "kill GOD in the minds of children". = Err...guess who actually hasn't read the books, or read them but didn't think about them at all.
Discovering the Golden Compass wrote:
Phillip Pullman: {in response to question that TGC is antireligion} Not antireligion, antioppression, antiauthoritarian. It's opposed to the use of theocracy for politicial gain.

2. "the most dangerous author in Britain !" = could be refering to the God-killing, but could also be that he raises questions that have been stumping all of Christianity for centuries now.
3. an ex-nun calling Christianity a convincing mistake = True, I can't deny it, but I can't find evidence at the time.
4. 2 characters representing Adam & Eve KILL God (called YAHWEH) in the end = I can't remember this at the time, but I'm only half-way through TAS on my second reading. It may have happened.

I think this refers to the part in which a witch tells about cruelities that have been done in other parts of the world in the name of the authority. Serving a false god. I wish those people would get it into their heads that neither Metatron nor the angel that took power after him are the Christian god. They are false Gods. S/he doesn't feature in HDM. AT ALL.


The closest allegory to the real God that can be found in HDM is Dust. =P Wasn't there something about God=love in the bible? Maybe those people should learn to... uh... read?

It's pretty much an allegory for The Fall, and it's not completely anti-Christain. It's just anti-Church and doesn't think that the Church sould be corporate and what-not. With all these "super churches" popping up these days, I have to agree.

It's the killing God (who, if you remember, isn't even really God, but Metatron.) that is anti-christain.

However, to steer this back on topic, I know I'm not a cat. RED FOX DÆMONS FOR THE WIN!

[Sea Of Darkness]

^.^ I sent you an e-mail explaining pretty much what Frankie said.


I'm not a HARE!

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KORAT DAEMONS!!!!!

[Frankie]

*bounces back in* I've found an even better test to take, with much more accurate results.

The Golden Compass Daemon Test
Your Score: Solitary Trickster
You scored -14 Extroversion, 12 Sensitivity, and 7 Openness!

You are shy and a little reclusive. Big crowds and new social situations make you feel uncomfortable and nervous. You prefer to stick with your close friends and family. You have a large personal space and you hate to feel crowded or overwhelmed. If you have been dragged out to a party, or have had a stressful day at work, you need to retreat to your own private place for a while afterwards to recharge.

You are very sensitive, and easily hurt. You tend to worry about what other people are thinking about you. Often, the offhand comments that people make hurt your feelings. You tend to hide your feelings from people whom you are not comfortable with, like strangers, acquaintances or coworkers. You may brush things off with a joke or hide your pain behind a toss of the head. You try not to overreact to things, and you avoid conflict, especially with strangers. However, if you are pushed too far, you can defend yourself with a vengeance.

With your loved ones you are quite different. You trust them with your feelings and with them you tend to be more open and sincere. You are loyal and clannish, and while you hide yourself from strangers and acquaintances, you come out of hiding when your close friends and family are around. Or at least, you do for a while, before you need to retreat back into your private place to re-charge.

Your daemon would represent your secretive, shy nature, your dislike of conflict, and your ready ability to defend yourself or your friends, should the need arise. He or she would probably stick close to you when you felt nervous or uncomfortable, and provide you with humorous commentaries to keep you smiling.

Suggested forms: Coyote, Fox, Raccoon.

G'on, take it. You know you want to.